恩格卡维尼：非洲发展需要两样东西，南非举办金砖峰会不只代表自己

【编者按：南非长期以来是非洲发展程度最高的大国，对华贸易也是非洲之最，2022年南非对华贸易额占中非总贸易额逾20%。

(资料图片仅供参考)

南非也是非洲最后完成“去殖民化”的国家，直到1994年，歧视黑人、实施种族隔离的执政政府才倒台。自此，南非实现全面民主化，同时也是全球南方概念的坚定拥护者。

2022年初俄乌冲突爆发以来，南非秉持中立，多次表示愿意从中调解。即将在南非召开的金砖国家领导人峰会，也给了南非更多展示的机会。

近日，南非国家行政学院院长布萨尼·恩格卡维尼（Busani Ngcaweni）接受观察者网专访。他表达了南非对于召开金砖峰会的热情，介绍了南非在国际关系问题上的处事原则，回顾了中国与南非多领域多层次的合作经历，并阐述非洲发展的成果以及仍需解决的难题。】

恩格卡维尼受访照片

【采访、编辑/观察者网 李泽西】

南非的“金砖时刻”

观察者网：本次金砖峰会，俄罗斯总统普京原定亲自出席即将在贵国举行的金砖峰会，但最终还是由拉夫罗夫外长出席。您认为是什么原因导致了这一变化？有人指出美国在其中扮演了一定的角色，并声称这代表了美国外交的一次胜利。您对此有何看法？

恩格卡维尼：南非政府稍早前表示，根据双方协议，普京总统不会来俄罗斯。在同一声明中还强调，俄罗斯仍然是金砖的积极参与者。我还没有从任何一个金砖成员国那里读到因此质疑金砖的声明，许多国家已经派出了代表团。

在南非，人们对峰会充满期待，情绪高涨。南非已经举行了六次各层级的金砖峰会。我最近亲自主持了一次金砖国家政府学院会议，与会者来自圣保罗、圣彼得堡、新德里等地，有1100人在线参加，250人出席，会上提交了50篇论文。

就第二个问题，正如我国外交部长之前所说的那样，南非在外交关系问题上有自己的立场。我相信你们已经看过我国外长重申南非在这方面立场的视频，南非不会因为受到其他国家的影响而做出决定。在不结盟问题上，我们的立场一直非常坚定。南非参与了“非洲和平倡议”，我们的总统与多个非洲国家元首去了俄罗斯和乌克兰，推动俄乌冲突和谈。

6月16日，泽连斯基会见非洲和平代表团（图源：视觉中国）

观察者网：南非对俄乌冲突的立场似乎让西方国家很不满意。他们可能认为，南非应该属于西方的一部分。而南非在过去一年里的表态之所以会引起西方如此强烈的反应，也许就是因为与他们的假设相悖。

恩格卡维尼：南非从一开始就是不结盟运动的一部分。非洲人国民大会（下文简称“非国大”）甚至在1994年掌权之前，就一直在参与不结盟运动，还参加了万隆会议，那是一个团结亚洲、非洲、拉丁美洲乃至整个全球南方的重要时刻，不过，当时南非的种族隔离政府没有派代表参加会议。

因此，非洲人国民大会的不结盟立场是一贯的。当然，冲突各方都有自己的观点和愿望，并试图让尽可能多的人支持他们的观点。对南非来说，最重要的是呼吁和平解决争端，这是国家发展的必要条件。

观察者网：正如您所说，全球南方将选择自己的道路，不会被拖入一场所谓的新冷战，但如果我们回顾一下冷战时期的南非，是美苏对抗的前线国家，因为当时的种族隔离政府长期得到美国支持，而非国大也得到了苏联的一些支持。那么，南非如何才能避免在任何新的对抗中被动成为对抗前线国家？

恩格卡维尼：有时，政府会对国际形势采取一定的立场，但这并不总能转化为民意。我之所以这么说，是因为当时美国、英国和以色列都不支持宣布种族隔离为反人类罪，但英国和美国的民众掀起了一场反种族隔离运动。非国大的领导层当时在伦敦，英国政府却拒绝谴责南非发生的一切是恐怖主义。

英国1985年反对南非种族隔离的示威

因此，我个人认为，政府可以采取特定立场，但无论是全球发展倡议、金砖倡议还是中非合作论坛等场合的声明，正如中国所强调的建立文化纽带和人与人之间的交往，意味着这些纽带将超越某一届政府的立场。

尽管两国之间存在对立情况，但有些中国人喜欢美国产品，有些美国人喜欢中国产品，这是市场的态度。因此，投资人文交流才是最根本所在，因为有了这些强有力的联系，就可以避免战争和冲突。世界上任何地方都是如此。

观察者网：金砖峰会正在吸引越来越多的发展中国家。自万隆会议以来，全球南方的概念已经发生了很大变化。苏联解体后，美国成了唯一的超级大国，现在又试图拖中国展开所谓的新冷战。您认为地缘政治格局的这些变化，对“全球南方”的概念意味着什么？

恩格卡维尼：中国和美国过去几年有贸易战，现在又有了芯片战，但即使政府采取更强硬的立场，中国人依旧在消费美国产品，美国人也在继续消费中国产品。

因此，无论存在什么隔阂，都不能阻挡全球南方实现经济繁荣的势头。美国是我们仅次于中国的第二大贸易伙伴，我们需要在全球南方内部进行投资，也需要从“南北关系”中获得投资。

观察者网：中国外交部长王毅在7月23日访问南非期间，提到全球南方国家应在新一轮全球治理体系变革中扩大话语权。您认为如何才能实现这一目标？

7月25日，王毅与金砖各国代表共同出席第十三次金砖国家安全事务高级代表会议。图自中国外交部网站

恩格卡维尼：对于全球南方来说，重要的是在和平、国家发展、公平公正等多边主义议程上有统一的声音，在此基础上，制定行动方案并付诸实施就会变得相对容易。举例来说，全球南方国家认为多边主义的体系需要转型，更加具有代表性、公平性，满足全球社会的需求，尤其是发展中国家的需求。有了这个共识，就可以启动行动方案应对挑战。

通过全球南方国家与金砖国家组织的接触，前者希望后者能够提供一个公平、公正和有代表性多边主义的平台，这正是全球南方国家的目标。我们必须记住，并不是所有的全球南方国家都能与全球北方国家（主要指西方发达国家）进行开放贸易、获取低利率贷款，或者轻易与他们的民众开展人文交往。

南非之所以邀请了这么多国家元首参加金砖峰会，是因为我们理解金砖国家所肩负的责任：我们不仅要代表自己，还要支持全球发展的事业、支持自己邻国发展的事业。任何国家都不可能作为一个孤岛独自发展，这在历史上从未发生过，今后也不会发生。

观察者网：一个国家的实力不仅体现在经济方面，也体现在软实力方面。您认为全球南方国家如何才能增强其在世界上的软实力？

恩格卡维尼：在南非，当人们提起“北京”时，就会想到妇女权利斗争，因为联合国第四次世界妇女大会就以此为议题，产生了《北京宣言》。除了妇女，其他过去被边缘化的国家和社区都在寻找自己的声音，正在变得更加自信和坚定，维护自己的国家利益和主权。

拥有金砖这样的组织是非常好的，因为它可以支持和巩固这种正在形成的国际凝聚力，以实现一个更加公正公平的世界。南非一直强调的是，我们要建设一个更美好的南非、更美好的非洲和更美好的世界，这是南非外交决策的目标和主线。

非洲的发展需要两样东西

观察者网：在上文提到的访问中，中国外长王毅还表示，中国支持非洲加快实现《2063年议程》。非洲将如何实现这一雄心勃勃的议程，尤其是在面临金融、政治、社会等方面的诸多难题？

恩格卡维尼：非洲各国正在快速发展。当我读到金砖五国和金砖组织的声明时，都提及了《2063年议程》和可持续发展准则，这让我备受鼓舞。

《2063年议程》对于涉及全球南方的多边平台来说，具有重要意义，这是非洲实现一些目标的第一步。发展需要什么？需要资本和专业知识。当全球社会支持你的发展议程时，资源、资本、贸易和技能就能够被释放。因此，对许多非洲国家来说，《2063年议程》将是发展和投资本国社会经济基础设施的重要机会，从而推动非洲国家与全球社会的贸易，尤其是出口高附加值产品。

非洲的《2063年议程》

观察者网：您提到了非洲需要的两样东西，一个是资本，一个是专业知识。这两样东西都可能会受到西方国家政策的负面影响，因为华尔街一直从各国吸引大量资本，而且全球南方许多国家都出现人才外流的现象，一些最聪明的年轻人去了美国或欧洲。面对这些挑战，如何实现《2063年议程》呢？

恩格卡维尼：让我举个例子。我最近和南非国家领导人一起去了肯尼亚蒙巴萨当地政府学校开展培训。在蒙巴萨，我看到了肯尼亚人如何非常高效率地管理港口。据我观察，蒙巴萨港是非洲大陆效率最高的港口之一：管理港口的肯尼亚人规定任何船只等待卸货的时间不得超过三天，还用当地人运营了一条铁路线，利用南非的投资和中国的专业技术修建了一些公路等等。

因此，尽管有些国家经历了人才流失，但一旦当资本被调动起来，有了明确的项目规划后，人才是会回来的。就像中国人留学后从美国回国，在工程、航天等领域工作。如果中国人愿意离开美国大学回国参与航天项目，非洲人也可以。

在华非洲留学生

观察者网：这似乎与“一带一路”倡议的初衷吻合，既中国分享自己的发展经验，当然“一带一路”框架下在当地投资的项目对此也有帮助。“一带一路”倡议在过去十年中发挥了多大作用？它已经成立十周年了，您对其未来十年有何期待？

恩格卡维尼：关于“一带一路”倡议，我想强调一点：今天的“一带一路”倡议，和十年前已经非常不同了。七年前，我个人对“一带一路”倡议的意见是，参与倡议的相关方缺少沟通，但现在问题不存在了，“一带一路”相关方的沟通及管理都有了很大的改善。在任何一个国家，如果要修建一条铁路线，却不让当地社区参与进来，都是肯定会遭到抵制的。如果你想修建一条铁路线，但当地社区看不到价值，他们就会抵制。因此，今天的“一带一路”倡议无疑是更受欢迎的，因为有了更好的宣传方式，宣传“一带一路”能带来的切实好处。

我还有另外一个个人意见。“一带一路”与其他所有项目一样，都是以合同为基础的。如果我卖给你一部手机，签合同前我告诉你这部手机卖一百元人民币，你有权力说“不，这部手机不可能值一百元，它最多值八十元”，你可以就合同条款进行谈判。非洲和所有其他国家一样，必须在合同管理方面增加信心和专业知识。现在，人们的自主意识越来越强，人们越来越自信，他们正在谈判更好的条件，他们管理利益相关者的方式也与多年前不同。这实际上是令人鼓舞的。

当我在欧洲时，我从报纸上读到意大利正在考虑退出“一带一路”倡议，于是我问自己，如果已经有了项目计划，并且已经做出了承诺，那么退出有什么意义？

我认为，许多国家需要提高谈判能力。很多时候人们在没有谈判的情况下就签署了糟糕的合同，这可能因为来自各方的压力，人们总是期望项目尽早有进度。重要的是：沟通、管理好合同，然后谈判出对所有人都有利的合同。

观察者网：谈判接触可以减少冲突，但也有某些国家和势力希望减少接触。比如，华为就是一家频频成为美国制裁和“脱钩断链”对象的公司。最近，华为在南非成立了创新中心，这也成为了美国批评的对象。对此，你怎么看？

恩格卡维尼：拉马福萨本人参与了华为南非创新中心的揭幕仪式。过去15年来，华为在南非市场取得了显著发展，他们带来的技术使其成为南非科技领域的重要部分，并在南非持续投资。许多南非人都用华为手机，它已成功立足南非市场。华为对南非进行的投资，也是南非人信任其品牌的原因。

7月13日，拉马福萨出席华为南非创新中心剪彩仪式（图源：华为）

当然，由于地缘战略原因，某些人也会进行批评。我能说的是，难道我们应该要求普通南非人不购买华为手机吗？如果消费者做出了选择，不管政府喜欢什么，强迫他们改变应该是非常困难的。除非设置贸易壁垒，强迫人们不要购买某些产品。如果消费者认为产品质量好，买得起，他们就会买。

观察者网：我们再回到《2063年议程》，其中提到了“非洲复兴”这个概念。在南非，特别是前总统姆贝基一直倡导这一概念。您能否简要介绍一下这个概念，以及迄今为止在这方面取得了哪些进展？

恩格卡维尼：“非洲复兴”这个概念已经存在了20年，并回荡在整个非洲大陆。《2063年议程》正是关于非洲复兴的。

非洲复兴包括但不限于：技能革命，让年轻人通过教育和培训系统，包括职业教育和高等教育，获得先进技能，这是非洲复兴的关键。在许多国家包括南非，年轻人接受高等教育的比率已经翻了两番。南非目前面临的最大压力是扩大对年轻人接受高等教育的财政支持。

此外，家庭佣工、清洁工、服务员和出租车司机的子女都在接受高等教育，这对实现公平也非常重要。许多来自非常贫穷的非洲国家学生在中国接受高等教育，获得技能，与政府签订合同，然后回国。他们会参与建设非洲大陆的网络产业，包括铁路线、电信、公路、铁路等。

最新统计出的非洲手机普及率令人吃惊：在非洲一些国家，很多人拥有两部以上的手机。此外，诸如南非、肯尼亚、卢旺达等地的人们正在进行无现金交易。当然，非洲复兴也意味着必须有公平的贸易。由于各国设置的一些贸易限制，使许多非洲国家的产品在市场准入方面举步维艰。非洲复兴还包括非洲作为平等成员参与改革多边国际体系，这也是非洲人拥护金砖的原因，很多国家很感激受邀参加金砖组织及其活动。

中非论坛、非洲复兴、《2063年议程》和非洲联盟之间存在许多价值和意义上的共鸣。正是因为中非论坛支持目前在《2063年议程》中表达的非洲复兴议程，非洲领导人非常乐意加入其中。

观察者网：您提到了非洲取得的一些进展，但是非洲最近的发展事业，特别是南非的发展事业，遇到了一些挫折。除了我们之前谈到的粮食问题，还有能源危机。南非一直面临大面积停电问题，这是什么原因造成的，如何解决这些问题？

恩格卡维尼：幸运的是，新开发银行的账簿显示，南非已获得超过40亿美元的贷款；目前至少有12个相关项目正在进行中，其中接近一半是能源项目。莫桑比克现在也开发了很多能源工程，那里发现了天然气并正开展相关工程。在尼日利亚，他们刚刚建成了非洲最大的炼油厂，这对该地区的燃料供应非常重要。

你所描述的停电情况，是由于投资延迟以及在维护和产能建设方面投资不足造成的。新产能刚刚建成，在效率等方面存在许多挑战。但是，现在有大量投资正在用于重建我们的能源基础，其中包括来自中国的公司。顺便提一下，即使在停电频发的情况下，南非仍然在通过所谓的“南部非洲电力联营”（Southern African Power Pool）向邻国出售电力。

南非约翰内斯堡2月的一次停电（图源：AP）

观察者网：投资方如何获得回报？

恩格卡维尼：在南非，能源是通过市场交易的，有反映成本的定价，不是免费的。政府为贫困家庭提供电力补贴，但不是所有人都享有这一福利。

这就是为什么中国企业、沙特企业、欧洲和其他国家的企业都在南非投资新的发电能力，因为他们知道南非有可获利的市场。

观察者网：过去一年，南非在全球地缘政治中的重要性急剧上升，达到了近几十年来从未有过的高度。您认为这是什么原因造成的？南非突然受到全球关注，是件好事吗？金砖国家峰会之后，国际关注度是否会有所减退，如果南非希望成为全球关注的焦点，该如何留住大家的目光？

恩格卡维尼：南非政府从未说过类似“我们宣布从明天起要成为全球关系的中心”这样的话。然而，正是由于南非以公平公正为目标，积极参与多边合作，人们才会关注南非。

前总统曼德拉在1994年南非重获自由时说过两句重要的话：南非将重新成为国际社会的一员，不再是世界舞台上的“捣蛋鬼”。这是意义重大的——它确定了我们的外交政策立场，即我们重新成为一个积极的参与者。第二，曼德拉说，在巴勒斯坦获得自由之前，我们的自由将不会是完整的。

南非前总统曼德拉（图源：AFP）

这种精神体现在南非政府的各种决定中。拉马福萨最近作为非洲领导人代表团的一员前往乌克兰和俄罗斯，他实际上是在践行曼德拉总统所说的话，即没有和平就没有发展，冲突可以和平解决。在北爱尔兰冲突时，南非在其中发挥了非常关键的作用。在刚果民主共和国、布隆迪等地的冲突中，南非也发挥了非常关键的作用。南非还参与了南苏丹、莱索托和世界许多其他地区的调停工作。

这也是金砖组织传递的信息，即发展必须是公平的，必须具有国际代表性，必须惠及各个国家和地区的人民。许多人认为南非参加G20峰会实际上肩负的是整个非洲大陆议程的使命，南非也必须肩负起这一使命。因为我们不会忘记，南非是全球团结一致结束种族隔离运动的最大受益者。

其次，南非是全球社会支持的艾滋病团结行动的最大受益者。在出现新冠疫情时，南非采取了与其他许多国家不同的立场，这是有原因的。世界上任何地方、任何地方都可能出现大流行病和流行病，重要的是政府如何应对。南非的立场基于团结精神的基本原则。

如果我们在种族隔离、艾滋病毒和新冠等问题上一直是这种全球团结的受益者，我们相信像金砖这样的平台可以用来动员国际凝聚力，解决世界许多地方的发展问题。这就是为什么我们的总统邀请非洲各国参与金砖；没有一个金砖国家的成员国说不要把非洲带入金砖组织，反而拥护非洲的参与。其他金砖国家的领导人赞赏南非肩负的责任，即推动非洲大陆的发展。

南非相信，我们可以建立一个更加公平的体系。金砖各国领导人高度评价即将举行的金砖五国非洲会议，这非常好。正如我先前所说，这将是近期南非历史上规模最大的多边会议之一。

以下为部分英文原文：

Guancha: In the upcoming BRICS summit in your country, President Putin was slated to visit South Africa for the BRICS summit, but Putin and President Ramaphosa had recently announced that by mutual agreement, Russia will instead send for Minister Lavrov. Given that Russia had previously been reportedly adamant that Putin attend in person, what do you think caused this change and was it because Ramaphosa managed to convince Putin that actually coming here might be a bad idea? Some have pointed to the US role in this and claims that this represents a US foreign policy victory. What do you think of this?

Ngcaweni: The South African government stated that president Putin, by mutual agreement is not coming for Russia. And in the same statement, it is stated that Russia remains a full member of BRICS, active participant in BRICS. I"m yet to read a statement from any BRICS member state that doubts the credibility of BRICS as a result of that. The spirits are high in South Africa is the great anticipation for the Summits. Many countries already are sending delegations. We have had over six BRICS summits already taken place in South Africa. I hosted a conference myself of BRICS Schools of government two weeks ago, 1100 online participants, 250 people present, 50 papers presented at the conference, participants from Sao Paulo to St. Petersburg, New Delhi and and everywhere else.

So it"s a very exciting moment in the south Africa, at the moment, I think as our minister of Foreign Affairs have stated before, South Africa takes his own position on foreign relations matters. I"m sure you"ve seen videos of my foreign minister, reasserting South Africa"s position in this regard, and South Africa wouldn"t make a decision because it has been influenced by another country. I think we"ve been very emphatic on the non-aligned issue. And our president has been part of the Africa Initiative, all those African heads of states that went to Russia, even recently he was there. South Africa"s position is public. We look forward to hosting a Great BRICS Summit. It"s the largest summit actually in recent memory.

Guancha: South Africa’s neutrality seems to be displeasing to the west to say the least. They probably believe that actually you, South Africa, should belong as part of the west. And maybe the statements from South Africa over the past year has received such a strong reaction from the west because this went against their assumption.

Ngcaweni: South Africa was part of the non-aligned movement from the beginning. The African National Congress has been engaging with the Non-aligned movement even before it became a government in 1994. It has been very consistent in that regard. In fact, if you remember, they were at the conference in Bandung. The apartheid government was not represented there, it was the leaders of the liberation movement. I mentioned Bandung because if you think about Asia, Africa, solidarity and Latin Americans or Global South as a whole, Bandung is an important moment where I the yellow star of China meets the Black Star which is Africa.

So there has been a consistency on the non- aligned stance. Of course, different parties to the conflict have got their own views and wishes and try to have as many people support their views. Most important to South Africa is calling for peaceful resolution of disputes, which is a necessary condition for focusing on national development.

Guancha: As you say, the global south will pick its own course and not be dragged into this new cold war, confrontation, however you might want to call it, but if we look back to the Cold War at South Africa specifically, South Africa was basically turned into a frontline country of the Cold War because the then apartheid government was basically backed by the US for a long time, while the ANC also received some support from the Soviet Union. So how can South Africa avoid being made into a frontline in any new confrontation against its will?

Ngcaweni: Let me tell you something. At times, governments can take certain positions about situations in other countries, but that does not always translate to how the public or the people feel about it. And I"m stating this because even at that time where America, UK, in Israel did not support the idea of declaring apartheid crime against humanity. But in the UK and in the US, there was an anti-apartheid movement there. At some point, the leadership of the ANC was in London even as the administration of the UK the time was refusing to condemn what was happening in South Africa is terrorism.

So I personally make that distinction where governments can take particular positions, but as is the case here, you read every statement, whether it"s a global development initiative, BRI, FOCAC, and so on, the emphasis from the leadership of the People"s Republic of China is building cultural ties and people to people contact, which means those ties will go beyond what an administration may think. That is why I"m saying to you, in spite of what may be going on at a level of political leadership, there are Chinese who enjoy certain American products. There are Americans who enjoy certain Chinese products, because that is how people and markets feel about those countries, although governments may take a particular direction. And so the idea of investing in people to people contact is fundamental, because you can avoid wars and conflicts by having those strong ties.

This the case everywhere in the world.

Guancha: I guess the concept of the global south has changed a lot since the Bandung conference, which is like more than half a century ago. Since that time, the Soviet Union has collapsed and America has gone from the Cold War , to becoming the only superpower, and then now, engaging a new Cold War with China. So what do you think these shifts in the broader geopolitical landscape means for the concept of the Global South？

Ngcaweni:In an academic environment we will elaborate on how managing geopolitics and sustaining your relevance and impact depends on your ability to manage contradictions, so between China and the US, there"s been trade wars and now there is a concept of Silicon war, but Chinese people continue to consume American products and American people continue to consume Chinese products, even when there are extreme positions taken by governments. there is a way of managing those contradictions and that is why there"s been an exchange at a very high level. Whatever walls are there, those must not interrupt the momentum of the global south towards achieving economic prosperity.

And the global south appreciates this. We trade with the US, our second largest trading partner after China. We trade with India. We trade with Brazil. South Africans love Brazilian shoes. In this calendar year, for example, Chinese and Indian cars made cars are in the top ten of the most sold new cars in South Africa. South Africans’ taste for Chinese vehicles is growing.

The Global South needs to also trade with itself, but also trade with the global North. We need investment within the global South and investment from North-South relations. I am yet to read a statement from the leaders of the global south saying they do not want to trade or to have relation in the global north. The Global South is assessing itself and taking care of the needs of their own people without necessarily saying we are cutting the ties with the global North. I have not read a statement like that.

Guancha: During his recent visit to South Africa, China’s now Foreign Minister Wang Yi has called on the global south to “expand their voice” in a changing world order. How do you think we can make this happen?Ngcaweni:Well, what is the important for the Global South is for them to speak with one voice when it comes to the agenda of peace, national development, fair and equitable multilateralism. Once we find common ground, it becomes relatively easier to design a program of action and implement it. So for example, the Global South has a view that the multilateral system need to be transformed, to be representative and equitable, and that the multilateral system must be responsive to the needs of the whole global community, in particular developing countries—emerging countries. That is important because from that you launch a program of action, you get the response to these challenges. In fact if you look at how countries in the Global South are engaging with BRICS, that is the sign of the hope they have that the BRICS platform offers that opportunity of a fair and equitable and a representative multilateralism that many countries in the Global South are aiming for. You must remember that it is not all countries of the Global South that enjoy unlimited free trade with the Global North, that have got affordable credit lines with the Global North, that got easy people to people contact with the Global North.

Certainly I read every statement from our foreign minister, from cabinet, from our president and these statements are very consistent and that is why South Africa, as a host of this BRICS (summit), we have invited so many heads of states, because we understand the responsibility that is carried by countries who are in BRICS, not only to represent themselves, but also to champion the cause of development and the aspirations of their own neighbors. No country can develop on its own as an island. It has never happened in history and it should not happen in future, which is why it"s important to build this solidarity.

Guancha: Part of the voice of a country, is not just in terms of economics, but also in terms of soft power. How do you think the Global South can enhance their soft power in the world—in a world that is dominated by Western narratives, at least as of right now.

Ngcaweni:So my reading of statements from different countries in the Global South is that they are asserting themselves. They are asserting their sovereignty. They are asserting their national interest. They are making decisions on who and how to align (with) in pursuit of their national interest, as well as regional interest. Because the world is changing very rapidly. In South Africa, when you talk about Beijing, people think we are talking about women"s rights and struggles because of the Beijing Conference. The same is happening for other marginalized countries and communities who are stating, making claims, they are being assertive, they"re clearer. And of course, it"s good to have organizations like BRICS that can support, can anchor this international solidarity that is emerging, towards a just and equitable world. In South Africa"s foreign policy, we use the following words and these are very pertinent. We say we want to build a better South Africa, a better Africa and a better world. And that is a goal and thread in foreign policy decisions, of South Africa.

Guancha: During the aforementioned meeting, Wang Yi had also said that China supports Africa achieving Agenda 2063. How will Africa achieve this ambitious agenda, especially in the face of many challenges, financial, political, social, etc.

Ngcaweni: There"s a lot of developments happening in different countries in the African continent. This is encouraging even for me as a public servant, that when I read statements from BRICS and BRICS member states, they do mention Agenda 2063. They do mention sustainable development codes, which means these multilateral platforms like BRICS have read statements from the various ASEAN leaders when they meet, they talk in supports of the SDGs and so on. This agenda of development is pertinent in many multilateral platforms, especially involving the Global South. That is step number one towards Africa realizing some of its goals. I say that, because what do you need? You need capital, you need expertise. And when you have a global community that supports your agenda, it unlocks resources, capital, it unlocks investments, it unlocks trade, it unlocks skills as well. So for many African countries, Agenda 2063 for them means they can develop and invest in infrastructure, social economy infrastructure in their countries. But for many of them, Agenda 2063 also means they can trade freely with a global community. And in particular, they can sell high value added products, which means that if people in the Global South are investing, there"s lots of investment opportunities, then you know there are markets, and those products can be processed in the African continent and they can be sold globally.

Guancha: You mentioned two things that they will need. One is capital and one is expertise. Both of these feel like they might come under either direct or indirect challenge from the policies of western countries, because Wall Street sucks in lots of capital, also much of the global south has ran brain drains against the western countries, where the brightest of the young people end up in America or in Europe. So in the face of these challenges, how would the summit agenda be achieved?

Ngcaweni:Let me give you an example. I was recently in Kenya, in Mombasa. I saw Kenyans running a very efficient port in Kenya, in Mombasa. But I observed that at the port is that part in Mombasa is among the most efficient ports in the African continent, and is run by Kenyans. And I saw young people, they took us on a tour there. I was traveling with very senior leaders from South Africa. We were doing training at the Kenya School of government. I saw Kenyans running a very sophisticated port where they have standards that say no ship must wait to offload for more than three days. They also run a railway line using local people, they’ve built some roads with South African investment, Chinese expertise and so on. So whilst there would be countries (that have) experienced brain drain, in many instances when capital is mobilized, there"s a clear project pipeline, people do go back to work on those sophisticated projects, just as the Chinese came back from the US to work in Iqiyi, in engineering, in space and so on. If the Chinese will come back and be part of the space program and leave American universities, Africans would do the same.

Guancha: What you describe, that reminds me of the BRI, which is China sharing its development path to other countries around the world. And certainly in Africa, many project are part of BRI and can help with your problem. It could help in terms of reversing the brain drains through the sharing of the of China"s experience as you describe. So how much of a role has BRI played in its last 10 years? Its come to its 10th anniversary. And what do you expect for the next 10 years?

Ngcaweni:So let me just emphasize one point with regards to BRI. BRI today and BRI nine years ago, it"s two different things. My private criticism of BRI seven years ago and so on was that there was very poor communication around it by all parties involved. And that now there has been a major improvement in the communications around BRI projects and the management of stakeholders. In any country, if you want to build a railway line and you do not engage local communities, they will resist. If you want to build a railway line and they don"t see value, they will resist. If you want to build a dam and major pipelines and local people don"t believe that they will now have access to water, they will resent or resist. So BRI today is in a better position because there has been more deliberate way of communicating what the BRI is and what its benefits are.

Let me tell you my other controversial private position. BRI projects like all others are based on contracts. Contracts are between two or more parties. If I am selling you a phone and we sign a contract and I tell you that it is one hundred RMB, and these are the terms and conditions, you have the responsibility to say, no, this phone cannot be one hundred, it"s eighty; you need to negotiate the term and conditions of the contract. Africa, like all other countries, must gain confidence and expertise in contract management. People are now becoming more aware, more assertive, they’re negotiating better terms, they are managing stakeholders differently today than they did many years ago. And that is actually encouraging. When I was in Europe I read in a newspaper that Italy is thinking of pulling out from the BRI, so I was asking myself, what does pulling out mean, if there"s already a project pipeline and commitments have been made and so on?

I think that many countries need to gain negotiating capability to do that, because people sign bad contracts without negotiating because there are different pressures, they want to see equipment moving next week. Communicate, manage the contracts well, and then negotiate contracts that are winning for everybody.

Guancha: Certainly engagement reduces conflict, but there are certain countries and forces that want to at least reduce engagement. Huawei is a company that has been frequently targeted by the US sanctions. Recently, Huawei launched an Innovation Center in South Africa. This has also made the target of criticism by the US, as well as the naval military drills between South Africa, China and Russia earlier this year, were also subject to criticism. So what do you think is a reason for their criticism of South Africa?

Ngcaweni:Our president went to open that innovation center. Huawei has grown significantly in this market over the past 15 years and they"re bringing technology and skills and so on and that is part now of the South African technology ecosystem and it has invested in the country itself. Many South Africans carry Huawei phones, because the market has developed a taste for that. South Africans embrace the investment made by them and is why they trust those brands. And of course, because of geostrategic reasons, they would be criticism. All I can tell you is it would be very difficult to tell ordinary South Africans not to buy a Huawei phone. It should be very difficult if consumers have made them choice, regardless of what government might like, it would be very difficult unless you put trade barriers to tell people not to buy certain products, unless you block them at the port. If they think it’s of quality, if they think they can afford, they’ll buy it.

Guancha: Part of Agenda 2063 includes the African concept of African Renaissance, which is championed by South Africa, especially by former president Mbeki. Could you describe it briefly and what has been the progress there so far?

Ngcaweni: Well, it is the renaissance or the revival of the African continent. This concept has been there for 20 years now, and echoes throughout the continent. If you read Agenda 2063, it is precisely about the revival. The renaissance of Africa involves amongst others but not limited to: one, a skills revolution, getting young people through education and training system, including vocational and tertiary education, gain advance skills. That is key to renaissance. And in many other countries, certainly in South Africa, if you look at the rate of participation of young people in higher education, the number quadrupled. The biggest pressures on the state is to expand financial support for young people to go to the system in South Africa. Children of domestic workers, of cleaners, of waiters and waitresses of taxi drivers are going through higher education which is important for equity. Here in China today, many African students come from very poor countries, they obtain higher education for skills, they"ve got contract with their governments and they go back. It is building the network industries in Africa. Network industries include railway line, telecommunications, roads, rail and so on. The latest statistics on the penetration of cellular technology in the African continent is amazing, in some countries in Africa, people carry more than two phones. In Africa there are countries like Kenya in South Africa, Rwanda where people are making cashless transactions and so on. That"s part of the renaissance in the continent. Renaissance also involves Africa participating as an equal member in a transformed multilateral system and that"s why Africans embrace BRICS and they are happy when they get invited to engage in BRICS.

If you read the FOCAC and you read the African renaissance, Agenda 2063 and what the AU represents, you see there is resonance. If FOCAC was not supporting that agenda of renaissance in Africa which is currently expressed in the Agenda 2063, I doubt that Africa leaders will join FOCAC. Because these forums that are responsive to the aspirations of Africans, they respond positively to them. And of course, African renaissance also means that there must be a fair trade. And there"s many African countries who have products that struggle with market access because there are certain restrictions that are put by various countries.

Guancha: You"ve described some of the progress. However, there"s lately been some major setbacks to the cause of African development or South African development specifically. Other than the grain issues, which we"ve talked about previously, there"s also energy crisis. South Africa has been contending with rolling blackouts. What caused this and how can these issues be fixed?

Ngcaweni: Fortunately, you read the through the books of the New Development Bank or the BRICS Bank as it is called, you"ll see that over $4 billion rents has been loaned into South Africa and there is 12 projects at least underway currently. And just under half of those are energy projects. There are also a lot of work going on in Mozambique now, with natural gases being discovered and work happening there. In Nigeria, they"ve just finished one of the largest oil refinery there which will be very important for the supply of fuel in that region.

What you described in South Africa is because of delayed investments and under-investment in maintenance and in building capacity. The new capacity that has been built came a bit late, there are many challenges of efficiencies and so on. But there"s massive investment going towards now rebuilding the our energy capacity and we"ve got Chinese companies there.

By the way, even with rolling blackouts, South Africa still distributes or sells electricity to its neighboring countries because of what is called the Southern African Power Pool.

Guancha: How will investor make the returns back on these investments?

Ngcaweni: Well, energy is for sale in South Africa. It"s a cost-reflective tariff. It"s not for free. The government subsidize electricity for poor households, but not a hundred percent.

So that is why Chinese firms, Saudi firms, firms from Europe and elsewhere are investing in new generation capacity in South Africa, because they understand that there is the energy market.

Guancha: South Africa"s global geopolitical importance has skyrocketed this past year to a level that has hasn"t been seen in decades. What do you think is a reason for this? Do you view this sudden global attention to your country as a good thing? Would this attention recede somewhat after the BRICS summit? And if South Africa wants to be the center of global attention, how might you maintain this level of global relevance?

Ngcaweni:I have never been in a meeting myself or read a statement by government of South Africa saying, we declare that from tomorrow we want to be the center of global relationships. It is however the involvement of South Africa in multilateralism that results in people making that conclusion, because South Africa identifies itself with just causes.

President Mandela said in 1994, when we won freedom, two important statements, that South Africa is back as a member of the global community. And South Africa would not be the skunk of the world or the naughty child of the world. That was significant because it was defining of a foreign policy stance that we are back as a player, and a positive player. Number two, Mandela said, our freedom is incomplete until Palestine is free. That spirit permeates in various decisions of governments. As our president recently was part of a delegation of leaders going to Ukraine and to Russia. He was in fact carrying out what President Mandela said, that here could be not development without peace and that there can be a peaceful resolution of conflict. You may know that when there was conflict in Ireland, South Africa played a very pivotal role in that. During the conflict in the DRC in Burundi and so on, South Africa played a very crucial role. South Africa is also involved in the mediation efforts in the South Sudan, Lesotho and many other parts of the world. This is a message you hear at BRICS that this development must be equitable, must be representative and that it must be felt by the people in these countries and the regions. People say, South Africa, you are going to G20, but we are carrying the African agenda mandate. South Africa must carry that. Remember, the South Africa is the largest beneficiary of global solidarity to end the apartheid movement.

Secondly, South Africa is the biggest beneficiary of the AIDS pandemic solidarity where the global community supported. There is a reason why when there was COVID, South Africa adopted a different position to other countries in the world. And their position was based on the fundamental principle of solidarity, that there could be pandemics and epidemics anywhere, everywhere in the world. What matters is how do you respond as a government, as a country to that. And if we"ve been beneficiary of this solidarity, on apartheid and HIV and AIDS and so on, we believe that platforms like BRICS are useful mechanism that you can use to mobilize international solidarity, deal with problems of development in many parts of the world. And that is why our president is bringing Africa into BRICS and importantly, none of the BRICS member states said don"t bring Africa into BRICS. They are going to embrace Africa. The leadership of BRICS appreciated South Africa carries that responsibility, that torch of development in the continent. And we believe that we can build a fairer system. And this is great that the leaders of BRICS understand and appreciate that they are going into a meeting of BRICS Africa. As I said earlier, this would be one of the largest multilateral meetings in recent memory.

（翻译、整理：李远信、董子微）

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